Minutes of Meeting of the Town Wells Working Group (TWWG)

Clitheroe Library 2.00pm 28th June 2019

Present: CCS: S. Burke (SB), M. Parkinson, Mrs B. Alty (BA), Mrs J. Clegg (JC), Mrs S. Penman (SP), Clitheroe Town Council: Cllr’s I. Brown (IB),

Heritage Open Days: Mrs M Fenton (MF)

Apologies: Ian Sowerbutts (Clitheroe Chamber of Trade & Commerce; Mrs S Hind Ribblesdale Rotary; Mr R Hailwood (Trinity Methodist Church); Simon England (Harrison Drury)

1.0 Matters arising from the notes of the meeting on 11 February 2019 (not covered by agenda items)

1.1 None

2.0 RVBC Community Services Committee meeting on 28 May 2019

2.1 The issue of protocol for ‘members of the public’ addressing Council Committees under Public Participation was discussed in the as SB’s address to the CS Committee took place at the head of that meeting and some eighty minutes in advance of the committee’s discussion and resolutions on the Town Wells.

2.2 it was agreed in future should representatives of the TWWG be speaking under the Public Participation item that a request would be made prior to the meeting for the agenda item to follow on immediately afterwards as had happened at the previous meeting and in other Committee Meetings.

2.3 CS Committee 19.06.28 Resolutions:

2.3.1 Committee authorise the Director of Community Services to make an application to the Heritage Lottery Fund for a small grant to establish ownership of St Mary’s and Heild Wells and determine the scope of works necessary for the future maintenance of all three wells; and

2.3.2 The Council continues to cooperate with the Clitheroe Civic Society and the Council’s legal department to establish a way forward with this issue.

2.4 Observations on CS Committee 19.06.28 Resolutions:

2.4.1 It was noted that item 2 of the resolution had been incorporated following discussion and a proposal from a committee member. This positive proposal was welcomed by the TWWG.

2.4.2 SB had reservations the outcome of Council’s approach to HLF even if successful and referred once again to the Strategy which CCS have previously suggested to the Council for a comprehensive approach to all of the issues regarding a secure future of the town Wells (see Appendix No6 as presented to the January 2018 meeting of the Community Services Committee http://clitheroecivicsociety.org.uk/projects/town-wells/appendix-6.html ).

2.4.3 SB expressed his concern that what had previously been agreed with the CEO, and the Director of Community Services (at the meeting he and BA had attended with them on 29th April) was not fully incorporated into the Report presented to Committee. Specifically, item 1 of the record of that meeting (attached to this record) that:

Based on the historic evidence which the Clitheroe Town Wells Working Group (TWWG) has assembled to date about the relationship of Ribble Valley Borough Council (the Council) and its municipal forbears with the Town Wells, the Council will prepare an application to HMLR to obtain some form of registered title for all three of the Town’s Wells.

3.0 Correspondence

3.1 RVBC

SB had sent an email to the CEO and Director of the Community Services Dept the previous day asking for an update ahead of this meeting and no response had yet been received. Subsequently a response was received from mark Beveridge. A copy of this email is attached to this record)

3.2 Ribblesdale Rotary

SH had sent an email to SB suggesting if the RVBC Officers were unwilling to swear a Statutory Declaration could this be done by a Councillor. MP thought that this was unlikely to be effective but can be referred to Harrison & Drury (HD) in due course.

Item Action

3.3 Cllr R. Newmark (acting Chairman at the meeting on 28 May 2019)
There had been an exchange of emails with particular reference to the possibility of setting upa Wells Working Group being established by the Community Services Committee, on whichthere could be representatives of the TWWG. SB to take this up with Cllr Carefoot, the Chairman of the Committee.


3.4 Enterprise Inns re The Dog Inn

SB has written and emailed Enterprise Inns HQ in Solihull asking if they could view their Deedsto see if there was a dated plan, or plans, showing ownership of adjoining properties. BA had discussed the issue with the Licensee who had also passed on a request through her line manager. SB & BA to monitor though was accepted that this was a ‘long shot’.


3.5 CRGS
BA was in touch with Dr Clayton and it was understood that, on his return from holiday, she would be allowed access to their historic Deed plans. This follows on from Simon England’s (HD) recollection that he had seen such a plan when acting for the CRGS and had already been given permission to review. Due to other commitments he did not have time at present.


4.0 Future strategy and actions
There was a general discussion which included inter alia:-

4.1 The society’s minutes (located and copied by SP) in 1976 with reference to the Wells and RVBC’s ownership - these are to be circulated.


4.2 An article in the 4 June 2019 edition of the Evening Telegraph by Jonathan Grieve - BA & JC offered to follow this up in due course as and when the need for further Press involvement is agreed.


4.3 CAT digitisation - SP will make enquiries as to the progress made as this could ease research into the Wells and the Council’s actions .


4.4 Meeting with Marshall Scott (MS) and Mark Beveridge (MB) on 30 April 2019 with the notes sent to them of the meeting by SB not having been challenged had expected to form a part of report to CS Committee. (See item 2.4.3 above).


4.5 The 2019 Heritage Open Day incorporates the Wells in the programme and will be an opportunity to promote further awareness of their significance.


4.6 Cllr Brown suggested that when corresponding further with MS and MB, that the Chairman and Vice Chairman of the Committee along with the RVBC leader should be copied in. He also thought that there were occasions when all the Committee members should also be included. SB will make further enquiries to the CS Committee to establish how ‘the Council continues to cooperate with the Clitheroe Civic Society’ as directed by the CS Committee on 28th June.

4.7 There was a suggestion that there might be merit in briefing Cllr Carefoot and possibly the new Councillors on the background. This view was supported by the SB but all TWWG members will be notified in advance of any such communications.


4.8 It was agreed that the future strategy could only be confirmed once the outcome of the current requests was received.

5.0 AOB None


6.O Next meeting date: TBC once responses to the current enquiries referred to above have
been concluded.

This concludes the record of this meeting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TWWG 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Minutes of Meeting of the Town Wells Working Group (TWWG)

Clitheroe Library 2.00pm 28th June 2019

Present: CCS: S. Burke (SB), M. Parkinson, Mrs B. Alty (BA), Mrs J. Clegg (JC), Mrs S. Penman (SP), Clitheroe Town Council: Cllr’s I. Brown (IB),

Heritage Open Days: Mrs M Fenton (MF)

Apologies: Ian Sowerbutts (Clitheroe Chamber of Trade & Commerce; Mrs S Hind Ribblesdale Rotary; Mr R Hailwood (Trinity Methodist Church); Simon England (Harrison Drury)

1.0 Matters arising from the notes of the meeting on 11 February 2019 (not covered by agenda items)

1.1 None

 


2.0 RVBC Community Services Committee meeting on 28 May 2019

2.1 The issue of protocol for ‘members of the public’ addressing Council Committees under Public Participation was discussed in the as SB’s address to the CS Committee took place at the head of that meeting and some eighty minutes in advance of the committee’s discussion and resolutions on the Town Wells.

2.2 it was agreed in future should representatives of the TWWG be speaking under the Public Participation item that a request would be made prior to the meeting for the agenda item to follow on immediately afterwards as had happened at the previous meeting and in other Committee Meetings.

2.3 CS Committee 19.06.28 Resolutions:

1. Committee authorise the Director of Community Services to make an application to the Heritage Lottery Fund for a small grant to establish ownership of St Mary’s and Heild Wells and determine the scope of works necessary for the future maintenance of all three wells; and

2. The Council continues to cooperate with the Clitheroe Civic Society and the Council’s legal department to establish a way forward with this issue.

2.4 Observations on CS Committee 19.06.28 Resolutions:

2.4.1 It was noted that item 2 of the resolution had been incorporated following discussion and a proposal from a committee member. This positive proposal was welcomed by the TWWG.

2.4.2 SB had reservations the outcome of Council’s approach to HLF even if successful and referred once again to the Strategy which CCS have previously suggested to the Council for a comprehensive approach to all of the issues regarding a secure future of the town Wells (see Appendix No6 as presented to the January 2018 meeting of the Community Services Committee http://clitheroecivicsociety.org.uk/projects/town-wells/appendix-6.html ).

2.4.3 SB expressed his concern that what had previously been agreed with the CEO, and the Director of Community Services (at the meeting he and BA had attended with them on 29th April) was not fully incorporated into the Report presented to Committee. Specifically, item 1 of the record of that meeting (attached to this record) that:

1. Based on the historic evidence which the Clitheroe Town Wells Working Group (TWWG) has assembled to date about the relationship of Ribble Valley Borough Council (the Council) and its municipal forbears with the Town Wells, the Council will prepare an application to HMLR to obtain some form of registered title for all three of the Town’s Wells.

 


3.0 Correspondence

3.1 RVBC

SB had sent an email to the CEO and Director of the Community Services Dept the previous day asking for an update ahead of this meeting and no response had yet been received. Subsequently a response was received from mark Beveridge. A copy of this email is attached to this record)

3.2 Ribblesdale Rotary

SH had sent an email to SB suggesting if the RVBC Officers were unwilling to swear a Statutory Declaration could this be done by a Councillor. MP thought that this was unlikely to be effective but can be referred to Harrison & Drury (HD) in due course.

Item Action

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TWWG 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Minutes of Meeting of the Town Wells Working Group (TWWG)

Clitheroe Library 2.00pm 28th June 2019

Present: CCS: S. Burke (SB), M. Parkinson, Mrs B. Alty (BA), Mrs J. Clegg (JC), Mrs S. Penman (SP), Clitheroe Town Council: Cllr’s I. Brown (IB),

Heritage Open Days: Mrs M Fenton (MF)

Apologies: Ian Sowerbutts (Clitheroe Chamber of Trade & Commerce; Mrs S Hind Ribblesdale Rotary; Mr R Hailwood (Trinity Methodist Church); Simon England (Harrison Drury)

1.0 Matters arising from the notes of the meeting on 11 February 2019 (not covered by agenda items)

1.1 None

 


2.0 RVBC Community Services Committee meeting on 28 May 2019

2.1 The issue of protocol for ‘members of the public’ addressing Council Committees under Public Participation was discussed in the as SB’s address to the CS Committee took place at the head of that meeting and some eighty minutes in advance of the committee’s discussion and resolutions on the Town Wells.

2.2 it was agreed in future should representatives of the TWWG be speaking under the Public Participation item that a request would be made prior to the meeting for the agenda item to follow on immediately afterwards as had happened at the previous meeting and in other Committee Meetings.

2.3 CS Committee 19.06.28 Resolutions:

1. Committee authorise the Director of Community Services to make an application to the Heritage Lottery Fund for a small grant to establish ownership of St Mary’s and Heild Wells and determine the scope of works necessary for the future maintenance of all three wells; and

2. The Council continues to cooperate with the Clitheroe Civic Society and the Council’s legal department to establish a way forward with this issue.

2.4 Observations on CS Committee 19.06.28 Resolutions:

2.4.1 It was noted that item 2 of the resolution had been incorporated following discussion and a proposal from a committee member. This positive proposal was welcomed by the TWWG.

2.4.2 SB had reservations the outcome of Council’s approach to HLF even if successful and referred once again to the Strategy which CCS have previously suggested to the Council for a comprehensive approach to all of the issues regarding a secure future of the town Wells (see Appendix No6 as presented to the January 2018 meeting of the Community Services Committee http://clitheroecivicsociety.org.uk/projects/town-wells/appendix-6.html ).

2.4.3 SB expressed his concern that what had previously been agreed with the CEO, and the Director of Community Services (at the meeting he and BA had attended with them on 29th April) was not fully incorporated into the Report presented to Committee. Specifically, item 1 of the record of that meeting (attached to this record) that:

1. Based on the historic evidence which the Clitheroe Town Wells Working Group (TWWG) has assembled to date about the relationship of Ribble Valley Borough Council (the Council) and its municipal forbears with the Town Wells, the Council will prepare an application to HMLR to obtain some form of registered title for all three of the Town’s Wells.

 


3.0 Correspondence

3.1 RVBC

SB had sent an email to the CEO and Director of the Community Services Dept the previous day asking for an update ahead of this meeting and no response had yet been received. Subsequently a response was received from mark Beveridge. A copy of this email is attached to this record)

3.2 Ribblesdale Rotary

SH had sent an email to SB suggesting if the RVBC Officers were unwilling to swear a Statutory Declaration could this be done by a Councillor. MP thought that this was unlikely to be effective but can be referred to Harrison & Drury (HD) in due course.

Item Action

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TWWG